G42Model Year: 2021 + E81 / E82 / E87 / E88Model Year: 2004 - 2011. Link to inlets:Mason!@Mason335iOUTRO SONG!water pump is also electric on the N54. . I have a 2008 E90 335i, its the first car i've bought on my own. 99 Add to Cart. Terms & conditions apply Includes latest revision N54 3. 2009 BMW 325i Coupe [6. 3. NOx is partly controlled by EGR. Pro-Line JetClean Gasoline System Cleaner Concentrate - 500 ml. Only two bolts (180 deg apart) will go in. Terms & conditions apply. Two are in the front, one is in the back center, and the last one and hardest to see/find is in the back left, on the side. all in all it was about. I take you step by step to install this into your 335i. The Doc Race intake manifold is cast aluminum and comes powdercoated in your choice of silver, black, blue or red. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. Yeah I get your point as well but there are in fact many other platforms with a heating function in place as well. 06. 00. I really wanted to delete both but one has worked better. on orders $49 and up. Free Shipping. The N54 PCV is actually two separate systems with unique faults and deficiencies. The 135i features a single turbo Precision 6266 conversion capable of 700+whp; Jake completed the entire project on his own. N54 Engine Limits – Simple Answer. 1. Free Shipping. 98 (Sale - Save 3%)VRSF Stainless Steel Muffler Delete. Thread starter martymil; Start date Apr 24, 2020 Apr 24, 2020Remove the wheel from the vehicle. VTT N54 Vacuum Pump Block Off Plate. Appreciate 0. There are 4 screws to remove, which you should be able to see in the picture below. Use a flathead screwdriver to pry out the old sensor. € 14,599. 2. All N54 engines share the same N54B30 engine code and the exact same design. 5" exhaust which eliminates the muffler and shaves an. Includes 6 injectors with seals, and decoupling rings Includes latest revision N54 3. Earn 5% back in ECS Rewards on orders placed 11/20-11/28. Tuning Tips – Raise this value higher to turn off the torque limit nanny. N54. comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment. You can then lift the cover off, and remove the air filter from the air box. VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. who introduced direct injection in 2007 with their N54 engine. The front brake pad is held in place with a clip that protrudes from the front of the caliper. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. They are specific in the fact that the Teflon seals MUST be replace. There are two main functions of the vacuum in the N54. 0L fuel injectors from BMW! Ideal replacement or upgrade for vehicles with fueling issues. on orders $49 and up. For now we’re keeping it simple, but this next paragraph is important. . I should be able to purchase a pulley and belt for ~$30 if I know what size they are. The difference in both power and sound are be noticeable the moment it is installed!Whats up guys, we are selling our closed deck built motor with 205 miles on it since it was built. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. 3 more replies. Torque (lb-ft) 295-502 lb-ft @ 4,000-5,000 RPM. Brand. 50. This is budget oriented kit for those who want to delete the PCV and opt to vent to atmosphere without a catch can. of torque, but independent testing has estimated the power to be closer to over 310. G42Model Year: 2021 + F44Model Year: 2020 + Previous Generations; F22 / F23Model Year: 2014 - 2020. Bucketed Performance Fuel Pump Stage 2. Hub for all BMW 3 series, 2006-2013. Vargas. This product was designed and engineered for to fit on both the N54 & N55 version of the 335i and 335is in both RWD & AWD configurations. If savvy with computers, INPA and the software suite BMW uses is available online free but theres a learning curve. G42Model Year: 2021 +E81 / E82 / E87 / E88Model Year: 2004 - 2011. PCV Deletion of the N54 and adding Vader Solutions Breather Kit. No one wants EGR, but cleaner air is highest on my pro and con list. Table of Contents show. Garrett makes excellent turbos, but most N54’s are running Precision turbos. G42Model Year: 2021 + BMW N55. However – as with the power gains – we don’t recommend an exhaust for this alone. An additional AUX input (0-5V) allows the system to alter flow based on air, exhaust temperature or air fuel ratio. Here's what I came up with so far. 0L. F40Model Year: 2019 + Previous Generations; F20 / F21Model Year: 2012 - 2018. Remove the clip on the front of the caliper. BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Ways to. 135i Convertible:. This product was designed and engineered for to fit on both the N54 & N54 version of the 335i and 335is in both RWD & AWD configurations. The N54’s career spanned a decade and became BMW’s go-to engine for every x35i variant of the 1,3,5 and x6 series among others. We always like to test new things, and motors are no different. Terms & conditions apply EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE. Braking Car Care Climate Control Drivetrain Engine Exhaust Exterior General Purpose Interior Lighting Maintenance Novelty & Gifts Performance. 0L. Yes, each. 500-550whp is really the safest power for reliability on stock internals. • The HDE system uses solenoid valve fuel injectors instead ofthe piezoelectric type used on HPI. Like its predecessor, the N55 is a turbocharged 3. The Garrett GTW 3684R is not a common turbo choice on the N54, but is a great option for those looking to stick under 700whp. iTrader: ( 0) i recommend a Gintani tune, since you are in the OC they are fairly close to you. great bang for your buck. Any belt that matches these specs should theoretically work. 99 Add to Cart. 3. BMW Z4 sDrive35is N54 3. E81 / E82 / E87 / E88Model Year: 2004 - 2011. Unduh di perpustakaan GameLoop atau hasil pencarian. This kit is essentially the N54 breather system minus the. The N54 can handle around 600-650whp and 550-600wtq on the stock block and internals. However, no…VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: In Stock $319. 1 is packed with even more capabilities. Interestingly, when designing their first mass-produced turbocharged gasoline engine, the Bavarians went full-on. Jake currently owns two N54 powered BMW’s – an E60 535i and E82 135i. Unhook the sensor wire from the strut bracket by pulling it out. Remove the engine cover if you have an N54, if you have an N52 then you can ignore this step. In this video I will be showing you the process involved in replacing your wastegate bushings in your N54 stock twin turbos. Hey guys so recently my 335i N54 went into limp mode, and here I explain what the issue was and how I solved it. Leaky Diverter Valves Causing a Boost leak or oil build up on your charge pipe? Try this! N54 355i 135I 535IHello all, I have an N54 535i but this forum is much more active so I am hoping to find more answers here TL;DR: Looking to fix my leaky factory chargepipe and DVs. Free Shipping. Includes 6 injectors with seals, and decoupling rings Includes latest revision N54 3. They’re simple to install. I deleted the Direct injection and the High pressure fuel pump I am running port injection only contr. By simply replacing the chargepipe, your N54 will still use the OEM diverter valve system. Appreciate 0 Tweet. MODEL . 99 Add to Cart. To do so, first disconnect the main fuel line at the end of the rail along with any lines at the opposite end. SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner - 15oz. Brand:. While the high-pressure fuel pump failure might sound like a disaster, Wastegate rattle is by far the worst most common N54 engine problem. VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. Logs will be provided tomorrow. Add to Cart. extreme engine mods are required to run this kit, please see below. Torque Limit Offset – Torque limit watchdog. Carefully depress as needed fan clips and gently remove fan. " "As with the N52, the N54 continues to use the aluminum bolts for most. If you wish to keep the thermostat after an oil cooler install/upgrade you will need an external one like the Improved Racing one. 0L Climate Control Cabin Filter. Vargas DI Delete Kit. When this happens, you will notice that the engine starts to smoke. BMW E61 535xi N54 3. Mfg#: 13538616079KT. 73 diff, tuned by evolve ~220 whp 207 wtq(ft-lb) SAE In-progress: //M front arm, M3 rack, e36M lip Wishlist: Coils, n55 mnts, headers, LSD, e60 finn diff "The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving. Once out you can reinstall the new bungs, and have the flappers welded in the proper location. Step 1 • Remove the stock vacuum line assembly from the engine bay. 1. B58 – $249. Also was wondering after you remove your cowl do you guys leave the microfilters on, or remove them as well Thanks. This is BMW's first mass-production engine to incorporate this technology. 0L fuel injectors from BMW! Ideal replacement or upgrade for vehicles with fueling issues. BOV Setup for your N54 | SpoolStreet Forums. 10:00AM - 5:00PM My Account Order Status Wish Lists Sign in Create an Account About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright. 1. Qty: Availability: Going to N55 injectors what would that solve? You just cut your DI only power potential in half or more. 2k for new injectors installed and coded. Availability Ships Direct from. 0 turbo crankcase catch canVTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. BMW F02 740Li N54 3. VTT-N54-STK-1AKT Qty: Availability: Special Order: Ships No ETA $1422. You et to keep the air filer for your vents, and still get all the noise effects from the engine. You either need to leave the system stock. G42Model Year: 2021 + E81 / E82 / E87 / E88Model Year: 2004 - 2011. The catch is. So I have maybe $6-700 to spend. This kit allows you to SAFELY remove the DI injectors, install our delete fittings, and run PI only. Definitely let me know what you have on yours. 0L. 07. Space is tight around this. This complete engine management system allows for full standalone running of the BMW N54 engine with advanced piezo direct injection, dual Vanos and twin turbos. I replaced the with turbolab rattle kit. His dyno pull on 93 octane fuel yielded 625whp at ~18psi. Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 6 Business Days $319. on orders $49 and up. In terms of the BMW N55 ’s specs overall, they are quite similar to the BMW N54 engine that preceded it. $319. Total Cost of Parts to me at least: Tensioner Part# 11287563927: $104. I searched but can't find one at the moment, but I have found references t people getting standalones to run DI engines. . The Boost Monkey N54 Oil cooler adapter plate allows you to delete the factory thermostat, oil cooler lines, and oil cooler. Hey everyone, Im planning on doing the secondary cat delete myself since I can't find a shop that will do it. that's DI only and pump gas. They also get rid of the 6mm rod end. F40Model Year: 2019 + Previous Generations; F20 / F21Model Year: 2012 - 2018. Includes 6 injectors with seals, and decoupling rings Earn 5% back in ECS Rewards on orders placed 11/20-11/28. on orders $49 and up. extreme engine mods are required to run this kit, please see below. on orders $49 and up. Engine. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: In Stock $319. Catless N54 downpipes remove catalytic converters entirely, leaving an unobstructed path for exhaust gas to escape. #9 · May 1, 2013. It’s the first mass production engine from BMW to feature this technology together. The N54 debuted at the 2006 Geneva Motor Show and was launched in. I've been looking to get a bit more sound out of my exhaust and I noted that a muffler delete was just way too much for me. We believe we have found the solution. 40 votes, 33 comments. Imo the biggest benefit of DI is pushing sh8t fuel further than it would otherwise be capable of. Redeem 12/4-12/29. Your. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. Tee Piece . EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. G42Model Year: 2021 + F44Model Year: 2020 + Previous Generations; F22 / F23Model Year: 2014 - 2020. 5" intercooler. 8619728 confirmed by current flash to be US tune. There is a low-pressure system, aka low side, that works under vacuum or low pressure conditions (idling, light acceleration, off the throttle, etc). DI is more accurate than PI or CPI on the B58. PCV Delete Fitting The PCV delete fitting is designed to remove the pcv and vent the excessive crankcase pressures that the n54 factory system does very poorly. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. If you’re using JB4, make sure you have the correct firmware and backend flash loaded. This is how the two hoses will look when when fitted to the ports that were bridged by the flapper valve hose. Was: $274. 0L. The difference in power and torque simply comes down to software. ) is that normal injectors do not have to be coded for, however, high pressure/direct injection injectors do need to be. Yes, Toyota slightly tweaked the B58’s design for use in the Supra. I was going to do the res delete, because I want the crackles and pops that the PE delivers. If you drive 5-10km to work one-way, an N54 in 2021 isnt all that bad. Monday - Friday, EST. The. Simple bolt-ons for the N54 can push the engine to 400-450+whp with relative ease. Bimmerpost ☰ Model Selection. Bimmerpost ☰ Model Selection. Includes 6 injectors with seals, and decoupling rings Includes latest revision N54 3. 1. Vargas DI Delete Kit. . Redeem 12/4-12/29. EGR is part of the emissions control. Mfg#: 13538616079KT. Remove this – you should be able to do it easily with your hand. This is an overview of changing the turbos on an E60 BMW 535i with Dynamic Drive (which makes life a little more complicated)this was done by Sinan from the. iTrader: ( 1) Garage List. As well as this, the M54 uses a more traditional fuel injection method, whereas the N54 features direct injection. Bimmerpost ☰ Model Selection. Chargepipes and blow-off valves (BOV) go hand in hand as the BOV is mounted onto the chargepipe. G42Model Year: 2021 + F44Model Year: 2020 + Previous Generations; F22 / F23Model Year: 2014 - 2020. On occasion I have had to do the valvetronic motor, thermostat, and boost control solenoid. VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. Install the seal pusher guide to the crankshaft hub. VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. PI Safety This is one of biggest advancements for N54 tuning for high power. can remove the entire intake s coop from the car. This is under the heading KL_Steuerung (terminal control). From reputable online retailer FCP Euro, Index 12 injectors for the N54 inline-six cost $549. Engine. Pure, raw N54 power. Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 6 Business Days $319. I put it back on the rear intake and notice that the wire connecting to it got kinked and was less. 6/3/2021 01 13 21_CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT: N54/N54T/N55 ELECTRIC ENGINE COOLANT PUMP 1/ 6 SIB . N54ACDLTKT. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 8 Business Days $319. In terms of the BMW N55 ’s specs overall, they are quite similar to the BMW N54 engine that preceded it. Shop By Category. BMW’s B58 3. Vargas DI Delete Kit. Using the N52 head on N54 block with MSD81 is interesting. As Studio54 states, the DMTL code is because you flashed a US spec BIN and your car which doesn't have the hardware the DME expects. Monday - Friday, EST. Bimmerpost ☰ Model Selection. Plan for. Using a flat-head screwdriver, remove the drain screw on the bottom of the radiator. Get a Kirkey seat and Hard Motorsport sunroof delete panel!. Much of it depends on PCV components location, materials (ie. on orders $49 and up. The BMW P/N is 11-61-7-547-242. Unlike most other BMW engines, the N54 never received any technical updates or additional variants. Pro-Line JetClean Gasoline System Cleaner Concentrate - 500 ml. The PCV system on the BMW N54 isn’t impervious to failure, unfortunately. Then it should be where i want it. The other plug can be left unplugged, or you can leave an OEM boost solenoid plugged in (but not routed anywhere) to avoid a check engine light. It's a long shot sure, but I figured it was worth testing. Vendita online Ricambi Ruggerini ACME N54 su VivaiScifo Store. It was a bit of a paint in the butt to remove everything. 0L. The N54 engine first found a home in the 2007 335i. Fuel Injector Installation Kit - Single. The car is a 2008 335, ACF top mount kit running a 6266 G2, China intake manifold w/ port injection (we'll be stocking these soon), JB4 with integrated PI control, MHD BEF (E85_TS_PI), 4bar. I didnt get a ton of wot pulls as my intercooler coupler and sound baffle thing kept popping off. The N54's benefit is simplicity, and the potential for high rpm power with N2o, Boost, and cams. This kit allows you to SAFELY remove the DI injectors, install our delete fittings, and run PI only. This car has ARM Catless Downpipe. Free Shipping. Speaking of those hoses, the heat cycling they experience. Using a pair of factory seals to seal in the head, these are a quick and easy solution for deleting direct injection on the BMW N54 platform. This engine was arguably the most iconic version of the N54 as it powered the beloved first-generation of the 1 Series M Coupe in 2011. Brand: ES#: 2695981 Mfg#: 13538616079KT Qty: Availability: In Stock $2754. This is really two projects in one. 0L fuel injectors from BMW! Ideal replacement or upgrade for vehicles with fueling issues. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 5 Business Days $319. Free Shipping. Now you can push the hoses on; the 90 degree hose goes to port marked out and the straight. F40Model Year: 2019 + Previous Generations; F20 / F21Model Year: 2012 - 2018. I'm with you Pete, but it would help if BMW fitted an EGR to the F3x that was fit for purpose and wasn't guaranteed to need changing more often than brake pads!However, if you’re familiar with N54 single turbos or other Doc Race products then you know their turbo kits do not disappoint. 0L fuel injectors from BMW! Ideal replacement or upgrade for vehicles with fueling issues. VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 6 Business Days $319. FYI, if you're going through all the time and effort to remove the intake manifold, you might as well replace the $40 set of Profile Gaskets while you're at it. Can you imagine going to a shop and they are like, yeah that will be 4. Next you will need to pick the map pack best suited to your specific BMW. I’m not sure what exactly caused the problem, but adding a. In this video, I install ARM Motorsports relocated inlets on my 2007 BMW 335i N54. When it comes to upgrading, you have the option to just replace the chargepipe, or replace the chargepipe and add a BOV. 37 posts · Joined 2013. 1) N54 Single Turbo 0-150MPH. It came out 10 years later and after the 'gen 2 n54' aka n55 which was the 'unsuccessful' successor to the n54 in many people's opinions. Qty: Availability: 3. of torque, found in the BMW Z4 sDr35is. Complete Kit: $4,300 – $5,095. Fuel Injector Installation Kit - Single. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. Includes 6 injectors with seals, and decoupling rings Earn 5% back in ECS Rewards on orders placed 11/20-11/28. Cylinder 6: 170 psi. ES#4045332. on orders $49 and up. What BMW’s Use the Dual Vanos System? M52 engine (’99-’05) M54 engine (’99-’05) S54 engine (’99-’05) N54 engine (’04-’10) Dual Vanos Engine Fault Codes. Well the biggest difference is nobody keeps up with n54 di that much. 0L. The other thing is with the port injectors positioned further back than a head designed for PI the slower transient response is noticeable at low revs, as in throttle blip below 2000rpm. VTT N54 “DI Injector” Delete Kit. It also controls how, and if, the car starts. Looking to get rid of the troublesome and expensive DI injectors on your BMW N54 and move to PI only and a standalone? If so VTT has you covered with its new N54 PI delete kit. BMW E60 models with an N54 (turbocharged) engine utilize two catalytic converters, one mounted to the outlet of each turbocharger. Free Shipping. Terms & conditions apply Includes latest revision N54 3. iTrader: ( 2) IMHO, leave it in place and just deal with the 3 minutes it takes to remove it whenever you need to work on the engine. 2. Take your BMW to The Next Level With this all in one Tuning. SCS Delta BMW N54 DI Engine Management Kit Management Wiring Loom Kit This complete engine management system allows for full standalone running of the BMW N54 engine with advanced piezo direct injection, dual Vanos and twin turbos. Regular inspection, maintenance, and addressing any signs of PCV system malfunction promptly can help prevent failure and ensure the proper functioning of the. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. Monday - Friday, EST. on orders $49 and up. VTT N54 Vacuum Pump Block Off Plate. Using the front jack point of the vehicle, jack up the car. Flashing through OBD2. Going to pick up the belt tomorrow. The N54 uses piezoelectric direct fuel injectors, and because it’s a fairly early application of this tech on a gasoline engine, they tend to go a bit wrong. Check out Cats2U: many great new & used options and get the best deals for PROTUNER BMW N54 FUEL INJECTOR BLANKS PLUGS DI DELETE Index 12 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!Decel is a low crankcase pressure situation, or should be. Browse. VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 5 Business Days $319. . Have to have strong di injectors and strong hpfp to make it a fair playing field or a standalone. Next screw the Oil Catch Can to the bracket with the supplied 2mm allen bolts and attach the bracket to the power steering reservoir. Free Shipping. Mfg Part #. The BMW N54 PCV System Issues. This lets you remove the bank 2 rear o2 and run a standalone wideband (or just plug it) in it's place w/o having to add another bung. Unclip the intake snorkel and remove air box by pulling it up off its rubber mounts . Decided to keep my car and perform a manual swap. And there is a high-pressure system, aka high side, that works when under boost or load. Remove this – you should be able to do it easily with your hand. 6x ALUMINUM DIRECT INJECTOR. Considering muffler delete is illegal, it is a bit challenging to find a mechanic that is willing to do it. schpenxel said: I have read BMW shop reports of "calibrating" injectors on the 535i after replacement. Injectors that cost 1/3 as much as the car + install. Appreciate 0 Quote 01-12-2011, 09:55 PM. 5” 304SS pipe with brushed finish. Available as an Axle Back , Cat-back, as well as Turbo-back. We machined these deletes from 310 Stainless for extreme heat, and corrosion. ByteTuner is a complete tuning suite for OBD2 BMW engine tuning. This is a significantly different injector design than the very common solenoid activated multi-hole injector. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 5 Business Days $319. 2. Redeem 12/4-12/29. 3. 5mm. G42Model Year: 2021 + F44Model Year: 2020 + Previous Generations; F22 / F23Model Year: 2014 - 2020. VRSF makes some excellent quality products for a great price. Working on creating a "collector" for a cleaner look. Anyways, we believe the following options provide a great balance of price, quality, and sound. This is a cast version of our incredibly popular Billet CNC valve. spoon-le-bae E90 N54 335i 6MT. We machined these deletes from 310 Stainless for extreme heat, and corrosion resistance, and include 3 hold downs. iTrader: ( 1) "4. N54 is an extreme plastic case), obviously residing climate of engine, and probably a bit of manufacturer error'ing on the side of caution as well. Braking Car Care Climate Control Drivetrain Engine Exhaust Exterior General Purpose Interior Lighting Maintenance Novelty & Gifts Performance. 99 Add to Cart. 99 Add to Cart. DI gives way better fuel/mixture control which helps with torque and turbo spool. Cracked vacuum lines. EXTREME ENGINE MODS ARE REQUIRED TO RUN THIS KIT, PLEASE SEE BELOW. Unscrew bolts or screws securing the rail in place, uncouple related wiring, then pull the rail away from the fuel injectors. Typically, Wastegate rattle requires two brand new turbochargers, which is very expensive if you aren’t still under warranty. It also has an additional two 1/8″ NPT ports per runner for meth and nitrous if you like to party. High flow, valved, stainless steel muffler. jaden540 Discussion starter. Direct Injection is a very sophisticated technology, with many benefits for overall engine efficiency, but there is a troublesome maintenance requirement to keep their. Although BMW used direct injection in airplane engines in the 1930’s they did not implement DI until the. This will remove the. Brand: ES#: 4623948 Mfg#: VTT-N54-DI-DELET Qty: Availability: Ships in 6 Business Days $319. In this guide, we discuss some of. Free Shipping. [1] It is BMW's first mass-produced turbocharged petrol engine and BMW's first turbocharged petrol engine since the limited-production BMW M106 was discontinued in 1986. This is for longevity. Beyond that you start looking into closed decks and etc.